Frommers.com Podcast: NYC Vs. San Francisco in a Cheap-Off Face-Off

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• Cheap Eats in NYC: Corner Bistro, Royale, and Grand Sichuan St Marks.
• Cheap Eats in San Francisco: Ferry Plaza Farmer's Market, The Tonga Room, and Morton's Steakhouse.
• Free Culture in NYC: Shakespeare in the Park, the Metropolitan Museum, and Governer's Island.
• Free Culture in San Francisco: Chinatown,the Golden Gate Bridge, or a family sing-along at the Caffe Trieste .
• NYC Nightlife on a Budget: Movies in Bryant Park, Summerstage, Celebrate Brooklyn, and Karaoke at Arlene's Grocery.
• San Francisco Nightlife on a Budget: A stroll down the Embarcadero, bar crawling in the Tenderloin, or a free movie in Dolores Park.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Announcer: Welcome to the Frommers.com travel podcast. For more information on planning your trip to any one of thousands of destinations, please visit www.frommers.com.

Kelly Regan: Hi, and welcome to a conversation about all things travel. I'm Kelly Regan, editorial director of the Frommer's Travel Guides. I'll be your host. I have two guests today, who are here to conduct a friendly competition that I am calling "The Free and Dirt Cheap Face-off." Ethan Wolff is the author of our Frommer's Guide to New York City Free and Dirt Cheap, and Matthew Poole is the author of San Francisco Free and Dirt Cheap.

So, I've invited them both here today to see which is the better city for budget conscious travelers, or just flat out cheapskates. So, Matt, Ethan, welcome and thanks for being here!

Ethan Wolff: Thank you.

Matthew Poole: Thank you, glad to be here.

Kelly: All right, here is how it's going to go. I've decided we'll be pretty to the point. We're going to have four rounds that we're going to do, and I thought for each round, I'm going to give you a category, and you each are going to give your best case for your city's superiority in that particular category. So, I will call the round for each city, and we will see where we end up. And let's make it clean, no rabbit punches, no below the belts, and we'll see how things go. So, let's get started, round one.

[bell rings]

Kelly: We are doing free and dirt cheap dining. So, Matthew, I'm going to start with you. What makes your city great for cheap eats, and how easy and tasty is it to eat cheaply without having to resort to fast food chains or street cart vendors, and what's your favorite cheap restaurant in the city? So, I'll give you some time to get started on that.

Matthew: My first question is, where did you find that bell? [laughter]

Kelly: I'll never tell.

Matthew: All right, in four words - Ferry Plaza Farmers Market. This is the single best place to go dining in San Francisco. Over 100 stalls, literally some of America's finest organic produce. Many of the top chefs also have stands outside as well. Where else in America can you get free handouts from Alice Waters?

Kelly: Well...

Matthew: I mean literally, these people are out there giving away free food, having you try samples. And by the time, you're fully done grazing, you're absolutely, completely full, and it's some of the best and healthiest food you can have in America.

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: Also, as far as having fun dining, the Tonga Room, $9.50, all you can eat. This is one of the slices of Americana; it's some of the worst food you can have for you... [laughter]

Matthew: ... But also some of the best! They have like, fake rainfalls going on there, and it's all sort of a Polynesian theme, with all of the worst fried food...

Kelly: Fake rainfalls indoors, let's add.

Matthew: Indoors! Free entertainment as well. It used to be free, and then it went up like a dollar, two dollars, now it's at $9.50. But, still, for $9.50, it's a lot of fun you can have. But, if you really want to go cheap; free steak sandwiches at Morton's Steakhouse in downtown San Francisco.

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: This is super top secret, most people don't even know about this.

Kelly: How are they free?

Matthew: They're free from five to seven. Just buy one drink, it's all you can eat steak... These are Filet Mignon steak sandwiches on sourdough bread, as well.

Kelly: Wow. All right, all right. Well Ethan, I don't know, this is sounding pretty formidable. Let me see what you have to say.

Ethan: Well, I have to say; it's right in the wheelhouse for New York, because free and dirt cheap, we don't even bother with the four boroughs, which are packed with really cheap eats. It's too easy to include the boroughs. So, we make it challenging. We're in Manhattan, we're in the highest rents in the world, and even then the book is just packed with excellent places. Great pizza, great Banh Mi, the Vietnamese sandwich that is all over the city right now, incredible Chinese. You can get Himalayan food, Vegetarian food, bagels - nobody can compete with New York for Bagels.

Kelly: That's very true.

Ethan: Tacos, falafel, Turkish. We have excellent burgers. For $5.75, you can get one of the best burgers in the city, at Corner Bistro. Or if you don't want to go to the west side and you want to stay on the east side, Royale has almost as good of a burger, and a great happy hour to go with it. You can get a four course buffet for $3.75 in Chinatown.

Kelly: Wow.

Ethan: Right next to the $15.00 Chinatown bus.

Kelly: OK.

Ethan: You can have a full travel itinerary and a four course meal while you're at it.

Kelly: There you go. And then when you're done, you can hop the bus to Boston or Washington.

Ethan: Sure, at these prices you can take a round trip!

Kelly: All right, all right.

Ethan: As far as my favorite place in the city, and it would be my favorite no matter what prices they were charging. It's Grand Sichuan, Grand Sichuan St. Marks. They're all over the city, but my favorite happens to be in the East Village. The food is incredible; most of the entrees are under ten bucks. I've never missed with anything there. I had my birthday there this year, had maybe 20 people, huge table, eating, drinking beer, drinking wine, and at the end when they did it, everyone was covering for me, and it was under 20 bucks a person.

Kelly: Wow, OK. All right. Well, this is a tough one, I have to say. And I might be making a controversial decision here, but I think that free and dirt cheap dining might just go to San Francisco, for the very reason of the Ferry Building. Free food from Alice Waters; you kind of got me there, Matt, I got to say.

Matthew: Yup.

Kelly: So, all right, so there we go. Round Two [bell rings] is free and dirt cheap culture.

Kelly: OK Ethan, I'm going to start with you this time, how much of your city's culture is accessible for free? How easy is it to scope out bargains or score free passes and tickets? And give me a quick taste of what it would be like to spend a couple of days in your destination, if you focused only on free stuff.

Ethan: Well, I always think of New York as being one of the most democratic cities you can find, and New Yorkers can take a lot of pride in that. So, the result is, a lot of the stuff is accessible. A shocking amount of stuff is accessible. In the book "Free and Dirt Cheap," we have something like 40 places that are always free - museums and cultural spots. We've also got things like Shakespeare in the Park, which everybody knows. Other cities might have "a" Shakespeare in the Park, New York's got ten.

Kelly: [laughs]

Ethan: I was walking last night in Park Slope, just happened to pass a full-out, full-dress Hamlet.

Kelly: Wow.

Ethan: And it was actually pretty good, they had miked it really well and I thought "Boy, I haven't seen Hamlet since last year, when I got to see it at 'Shakespeare in the Park'!"

Kelly: [laughs]

Ethan: And I was too lazy to wait online - I managed to win the lottery. They have an online system now for the Joseph Pabst.

Kelly: For the tickets.

Ethan: Things like that. Yeah, for the tickets. Incredibly accessible. And beyond that, you know, we've got a huge amount of history here. Got places like Governor's Island which are free. If you came for a visit and were spending a couple days, if you wanted to see the Statue of Liberty, you could take the Staten Island ferry.

Kelly: Staten Island ferry, of course.

Ethan: And it's a free ride, it's a beautiful ride, you get to see the spectacular skyline of downtown Manhattan, we've got the Brooklyn Bridge, also spectacular, we've got Off-Broadway, we've got Improv, we've got terrific readings. You can see George Washington's original pew for free.

Kelly: Oh, there you go. Some history - some history with your culture.

Ethan: History and culture, it's here, it's on the surface, and it's all accessible.

Kelly: OK. Well, Matt, I don't know, this is pretty formidable, what are you going to say to that?

Matthew: Please, got them beat.

Kelly: [laughs]

Matthew: This is the land of hippies, everything over here is either free or smells funny. Everything you want to do, everything you've ever loved about San Francisco is absolutely free or dirt cheap. Just walking around you can see the Golden Gate Bridge, you can walk down Lombard Street, you can stroll through Chinatown - our big, famous Chinatown, way better than New York's Chinatown - you can see the Sea Lions at Pier 39. You can ride a cable car for free if you just pick it up anywhere outside of the cable car station - that's a little local secret by the way. You don't have to pay for the cable car, you just hop on and hop off whenever you want.

Kelly: Well, do you not have to pay, or would you just not get in trouble if you didn't pay?

Matthew: No, you don't have to pay. You just hop on and look around like you're a local. You don't have to pay. Come on, only the tourists pay to ride the cable cars. That's a little secret there for you.

Kelly: All right.

Matthew: You can go see the Painted Ladies. We have, in fact, the AT&T Park - you can watch the Giants for free. There's an actual place behind right field where there's holes in the wall where you can watch what's called the "Knothole Game."

Kelly: [laughs]

Matthew: Where you can watch a couple innings for absolutely free.

Kelly: All right, all right.

Matthew: They built it on purpose just for that - the people who couldn't afford it. There's a family sing-along at the Caffe Trieste in North Beach, where you can buy a dollar of coffee and sit and watch a two-hour show, with family singing along. We have free walking tours. We also do half-price tickets, but we don't have that absurdly long line that you guys have at Town Square.

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: You just go to a little booth over at Union Square and you get half-price tickets. But actually, the best thing is the ushering. You can usher for free in San Francisco, and you can see any of the major concerts, or shows, or Broadway plays going on. You just call in and say "Hey, I want to usher for a couple of..." you know, you do the first hour and the rest of it's totally free.

Kelly: Right, right, I've done that before and that's actually a lot of fun.

Matthew: It is a lot of fun, and then we also have a website that's dedicated to all sorts of things going on called "laughingsquid.com."

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: Dedicated to free cultural events going around in the city. That's a great site to go to to find out what's going in San Francisco before you come.

Kelly: OK. All right, well, I got to say, I think this one - there's a clear winner here. Sorry to say, Matt, but Shakespeare in the Park plus Staten Island Ferry, plus free museums - New York wins this one, hands down, I got to say.

Matthew: All right.

Kelly: So there we go - so we're moving on, Round Three! [bell rings]

Kelly: Let's get busy in the evening - "Free & Dirt Cheap" nightlife. Matt, I'm going to throw it back to you. Let's break down the nightlife scene - if folks want to be social, but their cashflow is low, what are they doing and where are they going? Music, bars, happy hours, clubs, anything particularly strange or unexpected to recommend?

Matthew: A lot of people actually... the hot place to go these days is the Tenderloin.

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: It's a place where you avoid it the most, but actually some of the hottest bars going on right now are in the Tenderloin. So, you do the happy hour barcrawl in the Tenderloin from about five to eight o'clock, and this is where the things are going on now, this is the hip place to be. There's also, right now going on in the summer, free movie nights in Dolores Park. This is a hugely fun thing for people to do in San Francisco. Where everyone can bring a blanket and a chair, and you watch some of the first-run movies from way back when, like "Jaws," or "Vertigo," you know, things like that. It's a lot of fun, going to the park.

Kelly: And what park? Where is it?

Matthew: Dolores Park.

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: Just in the Mission.

Kelly: OK.

Matthew: Yeah, just in the Mission. This is a lot of fun as well. A lot of people are going down, just strolling the Embarcadero at night. The views are unbelievable, going down there fortunately doesn't cost much at all. And again, you can go on laughingsquid.com as well and find out a lot of the weird events going on. Remember, this is the place that started Burning Man...

Kelly: Ohhh, right.

Matthew: ... So, there're all kinds of fun things going on in San Francisco at this time as well.

Kelly: OK, OK, all right.

Matthew: All sorts of stuff going on. Yeah, so, there's a never-ending parade of things going on that really don't cost that much to do in San Francisco.

Kelly: OK, how about you, Ethan? What are cheapskate New Yorkers doing at night?

Ethan: Well, I agree with Matthew. Summertime is a great time to be out and about and cheap, and the movies that Matthew mentioned in San Francisco, we've also got them outdoors in New York, except we've got ours five nights of the week.

Kelly: Wow.

Ethan: And they play all over. The most famous is Bryant Park, but you can see them in all kinds of places - over by the Brooklyn Bridge. So, a great opportunity to get out and be entertained. We've also got all kinds of live music, it's just amazing. I live in the Lower East Side, and I really can't take two steps without hearing a band. A lot of the stuff goes for no cover. I was walking home just this week, heard some crazy blues stuff, sounded like a really, really old guy - that weird old America - so I stepped into the bar, looked around, and it was maybe a 90-pound Japanese kid singing it.

Kelly: Wow!

Ethan: But, that's the type of stuff in New York - you can't take two steps without running into it, whether you want to or not. We've got SummerStage, very famous and free. And Central Park, we've got Celebrate Brooklyn. In addition to listening to music, you can also make your own here. We've got DIY karaoke, where a live band will play, and you get to sing along.

Kelly: [laughs]

Ethan: A couple examples of that, Arlene's Grocery down near me is the most famous example of it.

Kelly: Now, does that cost anything?

Ethan: Nope, no cover. And sometimes there's a drink minimum, and that is since it's so crowded in there that no one cares they're just happy to have you there and be part of the scene. And another thing that I always recommend is the Reuben Museum of Art, which is open on Friday nights for free. You get to tour around this really amazing space with Himalayan art, and if you buy a drink at the bar, you get to go see a movie for free downstairs. It is a very well-curated list of films. It runs every Friday night. I think it's a wonderful evening; it's a great date, highly recommended.

Kelly: All right! OK. Well, both very compelling. I have to give the slight edge to New York City on this one Matt.

Matthew: Nobody can beat New York night life.

Kelly: Yeah.

Matthew: They had that one on the bag before we even started.

Kelly: That was a little bit... you gave it a good shot, Matt. I got to tell you. You really did. You put the city's best foot forward. New York gets the edge for that one. So we've got one final round, Matt. You got to pick yourself up and keep chugging along. But, we got one last, and this is for the shebang. If you ... well here's round four. Wait!

[bell rings]

Kelly: There you go. If you could pick the single best free or dirt cheap thing about your city, what would it be? Ethan?

Ethan: For me it's the Met. Everybody knows it's not a real secret, its "pay what you wish" so it could be a very, very cheap experience and it has all of the treasures of the World. If you came to New York and spent seven days exploring the met, I'm sure you would still find whole regions of the museum that you've never seen before. There is an entire Frank Lloyd Wright house, there's an amazing impressionist art, there's a Zen courtyard, there's the Trusken Chariots, there's the wonderful classical sculptures, there's a Buddhist statue that breathes hidden away in a strange corner and there's a Trombleau, an Italian wooden studio that's just spectacular.

Kelly: Right.

Ethan: You could spend hours in any one of those corners.

Kelly: But they say... OK, here's my question. They say it's "pay what you wish," but does that mean if you give them a dollar, they're going to give you the hairy eyeball?

Ethan: No. I have never had that experience there. If you're a New Yorker you are already contributing to it in your tax dollars. If you're out of town, the culture is there to be enjoyed. There's nothing wrong with giving an extra little money if you got it but I've never had any cashier having looked at 4000 people in the last hour ever bothered to look up no matter what I offered.

Kelly: OK, all right. That's good to know. OK Matt, here we go, it's all on the line! What's your pick?

Matthew: Sunday sermon and Glide Memorial Church. This is literally the Jazz fest of the West. Absolutely free. Twice a day every Sunday. This is one of the most amazing sermon events you'll ever go to. It's an amazing choir of about 100 people raising the roof every Sunday. Bill Clinton's been here, Maya Angelou and Robin Williams is a regular attender. This is not a religious sermon. This is a sermon about love and hope, prosperity and helping your fellow person.

It goes on for about 90 minutes to about two hours. It is a riotous party of everyone screaming, laughing, clapping, jumping up and down.

Kelly: And it's twice a day on Sundays?

Matthew: Twice a day on Sundays. You walk out of this thing feeling like a million bucks and you're ready to start your day, amazing day in San Francisco. It's the choir that makes it. Literally I've been to Jazz Fest Choirs and it is exactly like that here in San Francisco. It is one of the most uplifting things you can do probably anywhere in the nation. It is absolutely free. Everyone I know that's been here has been completely blown away by the experience of this. And it's completely free.

Kelly: Well, I got to say these are two extremely compelling cases. On one hand, you've got a repository for some of the best cultural artifacts you're going to find in the world and on the other hand you have this uplifting and inspiring transformative musical experience. Ahh... I can't make a call on this one. I think this is a draw. I think this is a draw. You've got high culture and you've got the beautiful music and transformative experience. I'm thinking this one is a draw. I can't call a winner on this one.

That looks like we're done with our four rounds which means we have the final bell.

[bell rings]

Kelly: I think what we're saying here is that based on the round by round result, if everyone has been following along, a very, very close, slight edge to New York City. I confess that I have a slight bias having been a long time New Yorker myself, but San Francisco also one of my favorite cities in the world. I've been there at least five times and plan to go back many more times. There we have it! But you know guys I think it was a very well fought battle. You both conducted yourselves admirably. You have nothing to be... you have everything to be proud of and nothing to be ashamed of. I think it was very, very well fought match.

There you go. We have some great ideas here about free indoor cheap things in both New York and San Francisco. Any final words Matt, Ethan about this experience?

Matthew: I think either way you can't lose: New York or San Francisco without a lot of money you are going to have a lot of fun.

Ethan: And this is the season to do it. If you're out and about in the summer take advantage because there is a lot of stuff out there.

Kelly: Yeah. I would agree with that certainly in both cases. So, that's really all the time we have for today. I've been talking with Matthew Poole, the author of the "San Francisco: Free and Dirt Cheap". And Ethan Wolff, the author of "New York City: Free and Dirt Cheap", in a kind of Frommer's cheapskate face off. There you go gentlemen. Thank you so much for being here. This was a fun conversation.

Matthew: Thanks Kelly.

Ethan: Glad to help out.

Kelly: Join us soon for another conversation about all things travel. I'm Kelly Reagan and we'll talk again soon. [music]

Announcer: This podcast is a production of Frommers.com. For more information on planning your trip or to hear about the latest travel news and deals, visit us on the web at www.Frommers.com. Be sure to email us at editor@frommermedia.com with any comments or suggestions.




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