Culture maven Amy Zavatto joins host David Lytle for a conversation about thrilling your taste buds. Listen in as they discuss how travelers can enjoy Mexico's Tequila Trail, the American Whiskey Trail and barbecue cook-offs. Learn about agave fields and favorite meals in Jalisco, touring distilleries like Jack Daniels and Maker's Mark, and the secrets on how anyone can travel and become a BBQ judge.
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Top Tips from This Podcast
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- Tequila Trail: Guadalajara -- Get in touch with Chamber of Commerce to set up the tours.
- Categories of Tequila: Silver (blanco), Gold (joven), Reposado, Anjeo, Super/Extra Anjeo.
- Whiskey Trail: Mount Vernon, Louisville, Nashville.
- Barbeque Judging: Kansas City Barbeque Society -- Get in touch with them to become a barbeque judge.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
Announcer: Welcome to the frommers.com travel podcast. For more information on planning your trip to any one of thousands of destinations, please visit www.frommers.com.[music]
David Lytle: Hi this is David Lytle, I'm the editorial director for Frommers.com. Today we're talking to Amy Zavatto. She's the co-author of the Renaissance guide to Wine and Food Pairing. She's also the author of "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Bartending," she's a drinks columnist for "Wine Adventure Magazine," a contributing editor to "Gotham Magazine" and she covers food and wine for several other publications.Hi Amy, how's it going?
Amy Zavatto: Hey David, great, how you doing?
David: Doing Well. So, Amy, you do a lot of traveling that focuses on eating and drinking, which...
Amy: I do.
David: ...I think everybody likes to do but I don't know if travelers always think about how they can make this a focus of their vacation. Recently you came back from Mexico. Just tell us what you were doing down there.
Amy: I went to Guadalajara to tour different places in the state of Jalisco to see predominantly different tequila distilleries but also to really check out what they're doing down there as far as how UNESCO has established the area as a world heritage site which is really exciting for the area.
David: Is that a recent development for them?
Amy: Yes it is. It just happened in June of 2006.
David: Is it the entire state of Jalisco or is it just the city of Guadalajara? What exactly did they designate to be the world heritage sites?
Amy: Basically the agave landscape in Jalisco. And although there are several states that produce the agave plant, which is what tequila is made from, there are only certain spots that the government actually allows tequila production from. This one portion of Jalisco including the city of Tequila, of which there is actually a city of Tequila...
David: Wow. [laughs]
Amy: ...and several places around there are part of this new world heritage site. Which is not just stringing together the tequila fields or the agave fields and the tequila distilleries but also all these cool archeological sites and the fact that mariachi music is from there, originates from there and is all...
David: I didn't know that.
Amy: Yes, yes indeed. And I heard lots of it, lots of beautiful, beautiful stuff. You know, I think we have this idea here sometimes when something is well known it almost becomes a caricature of a place, like pasta in Italy or mariachi in Mexico...
David: Right.
Amy: ...but when you go there and you really see it, it's so cool and it's really worth checking out.
David: And I'm sure it sounds even better the more tequila you have.
Amy: Oh yeah! Well and actually that's another thing. There are basically two categories of tequila, there's Mixto which is kind of the stuff that you maybe...many people are familiar with from their college days of doing shots and such things.
David: Yeah.
Amy: It's the lower end of tequila. It's made of 51% blue agave and then the other 49% can be made of other kinds of sugar sources. But then there's 100% blue agave tequila and that's the stuff that's really delicious and that when you taste it down there you're like -- Wow this is so different.
David: A couple years ago I was in Mexico and I had my first taste of real tequila and I have to say it was life altering. Simply because I understood finally that it's a spirit worthy of note as opposed to just being something that you have to cover up the taste with salt and lime.
Amy: Exactly, exactly. They regulate tequila in Mexico in sort of the same way they regulate wine in Italy or Spain or France. There are certain categories and within those certain categories they have to follow certain rules. And there's a new category they created which is called extra super Anejo which is something that is now delicious tequila that can be aged for up to three years or more. It's pretty nifty stuff.
David: What are the categories of tequila? If people want to go out and buy some decent tequila, what should they be looking for?
Amy: First of all, every bottle comes with a seal from the government that certifies that it is 100% blue agave, so look for that, look for it to say 100% blue agave. And then the different categories are silver or blanco, joven or gold, Reposado, Anjeo and now super or extra Anejo, which there's not a lot of that in the United States right now but it's starting to be imported into the country.Anejo is aged for a year, Reposado is aged for a two months and silver and joven aren't aged at all.
David: So they're basically straight from the barrel.
Amy: Mmhmm, mmhmm. Personally I would say go for the silver if you are asking for a margarita at a bar anywhere whether you're here in Mexico...get silver or ask for some Reposado in it, also delicious and Anejo you can just sip that all by itself. It's absolutely gorgeous.
David: How would you describe the taste of an Anejo that people would be sipping?
Amy: It's got a little caramel in it, sometimes it can be a little smokey and sometimes you can almost really taste the agave in it. It's sort of a vary faint vegetable aroma.
David: Interesting. So, you were able to tour distilleries?
Amy: Yes, and agave fields as well.
David: And is this pretty easy to set up? Can somebody go into a tourist center in Guadalajara and pick up a tour or how do they arrange this?
Amy: There is a new thing called the Tequila trail that has been set up and if you get in touch with the form of the Chamber of Commerce in that area you can take the tequila train, most of these distilleries, certainly Sauza being one, Jose Cuervo which many people are familiar with. Both of those are in the town of tequila. San Nicolas and Cazadores, two other facilities those are in the highlands of Arandas about an hour west of Guadalajara.They all do tours, some of them are free. They'll take you around the distilleries. You can do tastings and some of them will even give you lunch which is great, fresh tortillas and all of this wonderful stuff.
David: Oh fantastic yeah. So what's the cost for taking the train?
Amy: The train? It's only a stop. I don't believe that it's more than ten dollars. It's very inexpensive.
David: That's good.
Amy: And most stops are like thirty pesos. Totally worth it.
David: On your trip there what did you learn that stood out or surprised you most about the tequila industry?
Amy: Oh well the agave plants. When you see them they are these beautiful bluish green spiky prehistoric looking things. And they can get as tall as an average sized woman, maybe like five foot plus and change. And it's all hand harvested and there are 320 million plants in that country. They have to register all their plants.
David: Wow.
Amy: And they are hand harvested by men called jimadores, that's the term for the harvester. And they use this tool called a coa, which is a long handle like a shovel and a flat very, very sharp silver round tip and they just knock off all the spikes and then what is left is the inside or the pina or sometimes they call it the pineapple because it kind of looks like that. And that is what they make the tequila from. But they hand harvest all of this stuff. It's incredible.
David: Wow.
Amy: When you see them doing it...
David: That sounds like a lot of hard work.
Amy: And they asked us if we wanted to do it and I was like, "Are you crazy?" Although I did get to plant an agave plant and they are planted shallow. Its not like deep in the ground like if you would plant a bulb or something. It's very close to the surface.
David: How long does it take an agave plant to go from first planting to when you can harvest it?
Amy: Seven to ten years.
David: Really?
Amy: Long time.
David: Well that's a big investment.
Amy: Yeah and when you go to a lot of the distilleries you will see they have these. It's not just the fields they have, they are really starting to find ways to produce them in smarter ways and they are also trying to be much more eco friendly. And that is sort of part of the whole UNESCO designation that has been really helpful in helping to preserve a lot of the archeological sites in the area which you can also totally go see. And one of the places that I saw was called Guata Montones and they have carbon dated it to like 1000 B.C. and they are these circular round pyramids. I mean when you walk up to it you sort of look at it saying, "What is this?" because it is sort of stone and grass and it's all built into the ground. They are these mounds. They are beautiful and they are very particular in how they were built and you can tour those as well.There is a great little town called Tlaquepaque, although as you look at the spelling you will want to spell it phonetically for the rest of your life because its like Tlaqu... it's very, very complicated. But it's this amazing shopping district. It's not just like you see these little crafts and things. It's this amazing place where there are all these hand crafted beautiful things from the area. And you see people with their kids and families and it's like a big town square and it's gorgeous. Totally, totally worth checking out. I went to a great restaurant there called Casa Fiartey and the food was outrageous. And I couldn't recommend it more highly.
David: Yeah that sounds great. I love trips to Mexico. And I think every town that I have been to has that I have been to has that town square with the local markets going on and the families are gathered together. To me that is just such an iconic image of a Mexican town. Kids running around and people working at their food stands. It's great.Let's switch here from the tequila trail to something more domestic, which is the whiskey trail in America. Was it within the past year that you went along the whiskey trail?
Amy: Yes, one year ago almost exactly. Started out in Mount Vernon, actually, in Virginia, which most people don't think about when they think about whiskey. But George Washington, our first president, had a distillery on his grounds, and they have rebuilt it and it's opening to the public in April.
David: Of next year?
Amy: Yes. And he used to make whiskey and rum because Martha apparently was quite fond of the rum.
David: Are they going to be making whiskey and rum at Mount Vernon now?
Amy: They are making small batch production because they are doing it in the old, old fashion way. Using old copper pots still. So this process takes days, and days, and days just to produce a very small amount. When I was there, when they had laid the cornerstone, they had distillers, master distillers, from all over the world really who came to be part of this and help to make these just these tiny batches of whiskey and rum.
David: Are they going to be selling it at Mount Vernon? Or is it something that you can only get if you are dining there.
Amy: Only if you have a lot of money to buy auctioned off bottles of it because you really have to have a pretty penny if you want to get a hold of that stuff. The good news about bourbon, an American whiskey, in general, is that really there is no bad product. There is no such thing as rotgut American whiskey because of the standards that it has to adhere to. It all has to be fifty-one percent corn and then the rest of it has to be whatever mixes you chose of other grains. There really is no messing with it. If you want to call it bourbon or Tennessee whiskey that is what it has to be.
David: So where did you go from Mount Vernon?
Amy: From Mount Vernon, I flew into Louisville, Kentucky. And I made my base camp in Bardstown which is a lovely, lovely little area and from there I went out to Laredo to Maker's Mark which is gorgeous, fantastic, fantastic place to go visit. And all the distilleries there do tours. They welcome people with open arms to go check it out. And went over to Wild Turkey, went to Jim Dean, and Woodford Reserve. Fantastic places. And they were all a little different and that is what surprised me. Each distillery, even though their processes are pretty much the same from place to place, although they have different recipes and yeast strains and different things that they do to make their whiskey taste a particular way. They are all a little different. It's definitely worth checking out a couple of different ones. Just to see the differences.
David: Yes. It's those little tweaks that give them each their own flavor. I think that Woodford is fantastic but I always fall back on my mainstay, which is Maker's Mark, which I have been drinking for twenty years. Did you visit one or two distilleries in a day? How long of a time should people plan if they would want to hit the whiskey trail and visit some of these?
Amy: I wouldn't do more than two a day. Three a day? You would be getting really overwhelmed with the information. And you are tasting stuff too. And you want to be able to relax and really enjoy it. So, one or two distilleries a day. Two is good. Two is good pace. You can go do something before or around lunchtime, take your time, wander around and then go off to another. Because there is a little driving time between as well.
David: Right, and then you do have that conflict of you having to drive to get there. I mean you're drinking and driving, and so you...
Amy: Right, you need somebody who's going to be your designated driver. Not that you're going to be boozing it up like crazy; they're not going to let you do that.Well and also, actually in Tennessee the only two whiskey distilleries in Tennessee, George Deckle and Jack Daniels, the big famous one, they're a dry county and you're actually not allowed to taste while you're there [laughs] so you don't have to worry about it when you're in Tennessee.
David: I was in Nashville earlier this year and went to Jack Daniels, and it amazed me that they're in dry counties. What they allowed us to do since you couldn't drink was they would open up the fermenting barrels and you could move your hand over it and basically waft the air into your face...
Amy: [laughter]
David: ...so you could breathe it in but you couldn't drink it.
Amy: And at certain points during the distilling process the alcohol percentage is much higher before they water it back down again, and it kind of knocks you over. [laughter]
David: Absolutely! I thought breathing that stuff in was possibly worse than having to drink any of it; it was so strong!
Amy: I think the fun part of this, you know everyone thinks "Oh it's booze!" and this and that, but there's so much history involved in a lot of it. Especially when you go to places like Jack Daniels and you learn the tremendous history of him and the place. Even when you go to George Deckle they have the oldest working post office on the premises there, and there's all kinds of funky little things that you find. It's a lot of fun; it really covers a lot of different interests that people could have.
David: Yes, absolutely. The young gentleman who took us on our tour around Jack Daniels, his grandfather used to be the master distiller, so he had a family connection to the business. And it sounds like everybody around Lynchburg; they all basically work for Jack Daniels in some way.
Amy: [laughs] And if you can get to talk to any of the master distillers, that's a load of fun. I think one of my favorites I have to say, and that's not to say they were all great, I really loved all the people I met but at Jim Beam, he's such an interesting fellow. He wrote a book on Eastern Philosophy, he designed whiskey tasting classes for Riedel. And then he'll turn around and say some hilarious local Kentucky colloquialism where he sounds like some kid off a farm.
David: Right, right, the high and the low. Southern culture is fascinating to me.
Amy: Yeah, yeah.
David: You also did something in Nashville recently that is fascinating to me. You got to be a judge at a barbeque cook off.
Amy: Yes I did. I was a very lucky, lucky woman [laughs].
David: In an earlier conversation that you and I had, you pointed out that there are people who travel for this. They get on the barbeque circuit and this is how they take their trips. Can you expand on that?
Amy: If you want to, anybody can become a barbeque judge. Basically you send in an application, but there's really no reason that they're going to refuse you [laughs]. You get to their list and they'll send out their paper to you, and you can just sort of see where all of the barbeque contests are and sign up to be a judge! You know, I walked in there having never done such a thing before, and the people were so kind and totally took me under their wing, completely taught me what I needed to do, and by the time I walked out of there I felt, for a northern Yankee girl from New York I knew a lot about barbeque [laughs]. It was just tremendous, tremendous fun and such a neat thing for someone to do if they really wanted to give it a shot.
David: And you don't just have to go to Tennessee for this. This happens all over the country.
Amy: They're all over the country. So there could be one down the street from your house right now.
David: Or a couple of hours away and it's a day trip.
Amy: Mmhmm.
David: Even if you don't get to judge you can go taste.
Amy: The Kansas City barbeque Society is one of the organizations. You just get in touch with them and tell them you want to be a judge. I sat there and I tasted brisket, pulled pork, barbequed chicken, ribs, something else, and desert [laughs].
David: Wow, sounds like an awful gig.
Amy: I have a terrible, terrible job [laughs].
David: That must have been fun in just one way because you really can do so much with barbeque.
Amy: Yes, and that's what surprised me the most, is there are such differences between how somebody will do something. And there really is such a thing as bad barbeque.
David: Yeah.
Amy: It can be kind of mealy or sort of dry, tough, brisket especially you have to look out for that with the brisket. And also there are all these things that people don't realize. I went around and talked to a bunch of the people who were involved in the contest. When you cook pork for instance, you know if you cook it in your oven it has to be cooked to a particular temperature.
David: Right.
Amy: But that's not what you do when you're barbequing. You're cooking it at low temperatures slowly. You'll hear them say that all the time, "low and slow, low and slow."
David: [laughs] Low and slow...
Amy: The normal temperature that you want to cook at, throw that out the window! I actually met a chef who was in the contest and he said, "I was humbled when I first entered a contest. I thought I knew so much because I'm a chef." He was like "hah! I don't know anything" and he had to totally start from scratch and learn the whole procedure.
David: That sounds great. Do you think you're going to go back and judge some more competitions?
Amy: Well I've been invited, so I don't know how I could be so rude to turn them down. [laughs]
David: Yes, that sounds fantastic. Well that's all the time we have today. Amy, I want to thank you so much for talking about tequila in Mexico, Whiskey in the United States and barbeque in the United States. Hopefully we've given our listeners some ideas to base their trips around.
Amy: I hope so too. And I'll hopefully be writing some stories for you very soon on the last two topics we touched on so they can get more information there.
David: Yes absolutely, they will be online soon. Thanks a lot Amy, have a good day.
Amy: You too. Bye David.
David: Bye.[music]
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